This week’s Morning Java video commentary — the first, really, since some upgrades — revisits Robert Bortuzzo’s hit on Jaromir Jagr Tuesday night at Consol. And as you’ll see here, live rather than in slow-motion.
For more on the Penguins’ shutout of the Devils, check today’s column.
Hey DK, one small production note, and it may just be me, but the fastener holding up your bobble-head shelf just to right of your ear was shining like a little star. Drove me more nutz than I already am, kept thinking it was my cursor.
Maybe just dull it down w/a marker or something.
Light and sound were fine otherwise.
Bobble-heads still creep me out a little bit, They are all smiling ((or just evil grins?) lol
Very good stuff DK. Although I will say that it was slightly amusing for you to lament the use of slow motion replay to determine the validity of a hit, and then use so many slow motion clips of the hit.
I hope I'm wrong, but I do disagree with your final outcome. I'm thinking Bortuzzo will get a game or two off, and I'm basing that mostly on Jagr still having the name he does, as well as the wording of the tweet by the NHL.
Also, I think it's ridiculous to say that someone shouldn't be suspended simply because they have no history. This is very obviously hyperbole, but Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't a killer until that fateful day in November 1963. Everyone has no history until they have one. I think it's fair to use prior history as a factor when determining the length of a suspension, but not whether or not the action itself is suspension worthy.
I guess we'll never really know about Oswald being a killer since he was "conveniently" murdered two days later by Ruby, before he could defend himself or even stand trial. I think what you meant to say was Oswald wasn't a killer until we assumed he was. There's that "innocent until proven guilty" thing we all like to forget about, until it's you being accused, of course. ;)
I tend to agree with you that he will probably see a 1-2 game suspension. I disagree with the tweet that it was late. It was borderline, but I ultimately think the timing was okay. I think the bigger problem was that he pretty clearly hit the head in the initial contact. If the league wants to cut those hits out, they need to be giving out suspensions for it. I'm not worried about it personally. I won't be upset about either outcome.
A very interesting video. I have no ill will at all toward Jagr, but he does like to cruise around with the puck and few are big enough to take him on. I think it could be argued that the only reason he made the pass was because he saw Bortuzzo coming and had to get rid of the puck. Sid and Geno don't get hit like that too often because they're too elusive, but they get abused in other ways.
For fans to actually cheer when Jagr didn't get up, that was unbelievable, classless, and I was embarrassed for a moment. I am under the impression that it was a younger fan who never actually seen him in his Penguin sweater and watched him as you put it, save the franchise.
In regards to the shoulder to the head, that is a tough call. Jagr had his head slightly down, and as always, was a little hunched over. Bortuzzo has roughly two inches on him. Personally, I liked the hit before I watched the slow motion video. It is something we have lacked for a few years, which is toughness on the back end. Offensive forces need to keep their head up when 41 is on the ice, and goons need to keep their head up when 23 is on the ice. In my personal opinion, its part of a winning formula, but that is just me.
I'd like to hear more detail on how Jagr - by virtue of extending the Penguins playoff lives in the '98-'99 season - made a difference in whether the Pens left the city, when they were already in the throws of bankruptcy anyway. So Mario does not buy the team in September of '99 if they go down in the 1st round that year? That said, and not that I condone it, it was more likely the older fans cheering, who still carry a grudge against Jagr for the way he left, the things he said before leaving and the open wounds he continued to salt by playing for every division rival and not for the Pens like he said he would if given the chance again.
At the end of your video you said talking about the cheering fans you said...
Are we that far removed form 1999?...Yes, I'm afraid we are.
I thought you were going to say...
Are we that far removed from Sid's concussion problems...No, certainly not.
I love this post Hal. It's terrible and dirty when it happens to our guys, but awesome when we do it to others. Regardless of whether you think the hit was okay or not, the result was that a player was injured. Continuing to cheer once you realize that is horrible and embarrassing to the city.
I hate cheering for an injury of any player; it is wrong. The hit looked clean from the play and my eyeball. It certainly was cleaner than the knee on knee Malkin took with no call from the league.
Generally, I would agree that cheering for an injury of a player is wrong. Could it be argued that people were just cheering for a big hit? I didn't see the hit live, and YouTube is blocked at my office (boo!), so I'm just asking.
One of the biggest cheers I ever heard at Mellon Arena came when Darius Kasparaitis knocked Eric Lindros into another dimension! You would have thought we just won the Cup! I have to admit, I was cheering with the best of them. Initially, I was just cheering for a bone-jarring hit, but when I saw it was Lindros I cheered even more! I still don't feel bad about that. :)
DK - good take, especially on the super slo-mo review.
As a Devil fan, while frustrating to see another forward go down )essentially losing an entire line to injury in the same game, I agree with you in that my first reaction was that the hit was clean. Of course, I was also a big fan of Scott Stevens, and I saw him lay a number of huge, clean hits over his time on the ice.
As a native Pittsburgher, though, I was taken aback by what appeared to be cheering while Jagr was down. I understood the cheering for a big hit - we all do that - but was surprised that after that initial burst died down that it actually got louder briefly as he remained on the ice, especially as stated above when it comes to Sid and head injuries. For a second I thought the Devs were in Philly.
I think he'll get a brief sit-down from the NHL office, if only as they overreact on the side of "safety" in the league.
I've never understood the fan hatred of Jagr at all. There was no way that the Pens could afford the guy when he left. The team knew it. Jagr knew it.
Was he a bit petulant at the time - sure. But I don't see that as a reason for the fans to treat him as they do. And cheering his injury is just inexcusable.
I think Bortuzzo is going to get suspended -- probably 3-5 games.
Looked to me both slightly late and that his right arm/side lifted up, causing his shoulder to contact Jagr's head.
Late to watching the video, but I'd like to know why Coach Cowher and Heath Miller changed spots at the 4:10 spot? BTW, great explanation surrounding the circumstances of the hit, the non-call/reaction from everyone on the ice, then the NHL's overreaction this morning.
IMO after playing the game a number of years, there's no way Bortz can hold up there once committed to the hit. He was square, tucked his shoulder, did not leave his feet into the hit, yes shoulder caught Jagr high, who was coasting through his follow through head down. That's why we teach the kids Heads Up.
The same NJ fans screaming over it used to cheer Scott Stevens for the same hit.
The NHL inducted Stevens into the HOF for doing exactly what Bortuzzo did, and more often than not, to a higher and more vicious degree. NHL = National Hypocrites League.
This is the most important part of your whole post. The NHL has been pretty clear that they don't care about the rest of it. If you make principle contact with the head, it will be punished. The onus is on the hitter to make sure this doesn't happen, whether the hittee has his head down or not.
I knew I should have put up all sorts of disclaimers regarding Oswald, even after the hyperbole disclaimer. In order to not get off track and into politics/conspiracy theories, let's just pretend I said "a person isn't a killer, until they kill someone". The semantics of the argument is still the same.
How does one become a repeat offender until he is prosecuted once?
It is poor defense to take a run at a guy behind the net when the play has moved to the slot.
Just because the angel Penguins did it doesn't make it okay.
You can't dismiss the possiblility of a suspension because of no call when the competency of NHL, and all sports officials in general, are debated daily. Look at the bad safe/out calls in baseball that more often or not are not are nowcalled correctly through the use of slow motion replay, or sideline plays in football, as another example. The Steelers won a Super Bowl on a super-slo-mo replay review.
Do not be quick to dismiss the prospect of a Bortuzzo multiple game suspension.
Few people walk into the office for a hearing and leave with a cup of coffee.
Seeing the play happen live on TV, I honestly thought it was just a very good hockey play. I was disappointed in seeing the NHL tweet that Bortuzzo was to have a meeting regarding it, afterwards. Where were those same tweets and meetings during last season's Stanley Cup Playoffs, as Sid was being repeatedly cross-checked to the back of the head, against the Rangers? Bortuzzo's hit was clearly a bang bang play happening in full action, while Staal bashing Sid across the back of his head with his stick, repeatedly, was most definitely a conscious and calculated effort. It doesn't bother me that they want to make the game safer, as far as eliminating shots to the head, etc., but they are so inconsistent with their enforcement that it really makes you question what they are really doing?
Y'know I'd have to go look up the NHLs wording of the rule itself....
I know it mentions targeting the head, but that's entirely subjective....and when a big tall defenseman lines up a shorter guy, head contact is going to happen no matter the intent. Or a guy coasting with head down a la Jags.....
Maybe we should eliminate the shoulder check completely and go back to only hip-checking! Just as spectacular and generally less risk of injury unless you're Boychuk and try to kneecap somebody.
I agree with you, Sarah...targeting an opponents head is completely different than what we saw from Bortuzzo's hit last night. Not sure what those who are complaining about it being a shot to the head want taller guys to do...maybe squat down?? lol
Hah! And let's not even go into how it's perfectly OK for guys to drop the mittens and throw hay-makers at each other's heads! Tradition!
But a clean hit that knocks out a star.....oh my goodness, can't have that.
Bortuzzo and Jagr had been jousting all game. Bortuzzo went way out of position to make the hit. That's not bang-bang, that's chasing a guy to make a hit.
Since there is confusion on what the rules are, the rule states that you cannot make the head the principle point of contact. Sarah makes a good point about there being an inherent risk of head contact when a large player hits a small player. This is why the rule states "principal point of contact". As long as the brunt of the hit is not to the head, or if the first point of contact is not the head, the hit is generally ok.
As for the Bortuzzo hit, I think there is a good chance he takes a 3-5 game sit. The NHL generally allows hits to be administered up to 1 second after the player being hit gets rid of the pass. The Bortuzzo hit was more like 2-3 seconds after the pass, so it was a bit late. The principal point of contact was pretty high. It is hard to tell, but it could have been high in the chest, or the head. The most damning thing IMO is that he left his position and responsibilities in the slot to make this hit. That could be seen as predatory behavior. If NHL DOPS finds this to be predatory Bortz will be out a while.
So a guy is not allowed to make a hit behind the net if he's a defenseman, hmmm okay. His coach didn't have a problem with him making a hit there. In fact he said Bortuzzo needs to play physical. I seriously doubt the coaches would discourage him from doing so because he "left his position and responsibilities in the slot."
I didn't think it was a clean hit, I thought it was high and touch late, we can disagree. That said the only reason NHL Player Safety is involved is because a player was injured, they only punish/look at hits that injure, which means very few hits will be looked at and the behavior will remain unchanged.
Well I guess we disagree on this one DJ....his shoulder clearly caught Jagr almost in the jaw (see his head spin towards the glass) but I did not see leading elbow or charging there. I don't think it gets much cleaner, but as the league has mentioned the "lateness" is at issue yes? Maybe a bit late....when I watch it super-slow I keep cringing and thinking "get yer head up!" Anyway, late, maybe. The rest clean IMO.
I couldn't agree more with this Lane. My biggest problem with the NHL's supplemental discipline is the fact that it is so horribly enforced. The worst hits are usually ignored if they don't lead to injury while relatively minor hits are over analyzed when they do. Even worse, the caliber of the player that gets hit seems to have a significant impact on the punishment while that should be completely irrelevant. The entire mindset has to change. The action itself should be punished regardless of the players involved or the result of the action.
Thank You DK for confirming my initial clean hit reaction last evening. Gotta judge these hits live action first.
Just a good "hockey hit. If the league wants to call it "late", so be it. The NHL is only consistent in their inconstansity.
In DeBoer's defense I'm finding it believable that most of the refs can't see, period, this year. It's hard to call something on the ice when you're doing your best Stevie Wonder impersonation.
No reaction from anyone on ice or bench is telling,
DeBoer's WW4 remark post game was ridiculous. "Oh if somebody did that to Crosby we'd have WW4"
Really? Hmmm......after the Steckel hit that put Sid out for a year and a half, I mostly remember....crickets.....
My first reaction watching live and the first couple replays is that it was late. I think because of what had been going on between the two all night, Bortuzzo sought him out. As for the hit being to the head, you changed my mind with the replays you're showing. Off what Root showed, I didn't think it was high. But I do now. I think Bortuzzo will be taking a few games off.
In fact I'll be most interested in how MJ and the Pens react to this. Will they try to stop Bortz from playing this way? Man I hope not. He should never be a healthy scratch IMO. Brings exactly what we've been missing since the whole Matt Cooke Neutering fiasco....
I don't think a significant change is needed. I think he will mostly get into trouble because it looks like he got up a little high and got some of the head in the initial contact. All he has to do is just slightly adjust to make sure he is aiming those hits square into the chest in the future. No other changes should be necessary.
MJ was asked after the game, said he hadn't seen a replay but thought Bort. has to make the hit, has to be physical to be successful. I don't think they'll ask him to change even if does get suspended.
This was a really great video DK! I'm pretty disappointed to hear about the fan reaction to Jagr's injury. First of all, you don't have that reaction no matter who is injured -- it is simply disrespectful. Second, I will never understand the hatred some fans have towards Jagr. He is still the second best player in franchise history and was instrumental in the team winning back-to-back championships. He should forever be celebrated as one of the Penguins greats. He left and finished his career a different way. People need to get over that. He didn't owe the city or the team anything.
My first takeaway was the Andrew Ladd bobblehead, front and center, amongst all the Penguins, Steelers, and Pirates ones.
As for the hit itself, this article by the Minnesota Star Tribune's Michael Russo says the Department of Player Safety says a hit is late if it's .6 seconds or more after the puck has been released:
It's a really good article, and I recommend reading the whole thing if you have the time. Here are the two points I find most relevant to Bortuzzo/Jagr:
"Reviewable incidents are inserted into clipping software, to be viewed frame by frame. This enables the league to examine different angles or zoom in and out. The league can tell down to a 10th of a second how long a hit takes place after a player no longer has the puck (0.6 to 0.7 seconds is too late). On illegal checks to the head, the league can tell within a fraction of an inch the main point of contact."
"“It’s amazing to me how few people know the actual rules,” Echevarrieta said. “Hitting in the head isn’t necessarily illegal. One day it might be, but right now, it’s not. It’s called illegal check to the head for a reason. Sometimes hitting in the head is inevitable.”"
Root only showed 1 regular speed angle of the hit (other angles were slowed down) and it was tough to see the exact moment of impact because it happened on the edge of the screen. I timed it by my highly unscientific methods and got less than .5 seconds each time. I'm sure DoPS has better angles and can frame-by-frame it to see the exact time though. I guess we'll see...
Good stuff. I guess I need to understand when head-contact is Ok vs when Not OK....
Do they have to try to determine if the head is the "primary" source of contact? That's tough to do.....esp in real-time.
Love these videos. Hate that coffee sound effect. Am I the only one unsettled by this? I'd rather hear Peter Lorre whisper "moist" for each interstitial.
Good assessment DK, but I do disagree with you. When I saw it live, I thought it was a penalty, and re-watched it live and came to the same conclusion. Jagr dished the puck at the goal line and was run over behind the net near the trapezoid line, that is about 25-30 feet away. The hit was also high and not because Bortuzzo is tall, Jagr is 1 inch smaller, but because he put his shoulder and elbow through his head. The hit was not necessary, and should have received a roughing or charging call at the time. We (Pens fans) got away with one there.
Location of the puck is irrelevant, as weird as that sounds. DoPS says in the article I linked that a player can be hit after releasing the puck if contact is less than .6 seconds. Puck can travel quite a bit in that blink of an eye.
I think the elbow came up after contract; it was tucked before impact.
Great video! I like how it was intertwined with replays of the hit and Bortuzzo's reaction, etc. Made it very interesting. Nice change of pace from the print and radio. Keep up the good work DK.
If the hit by Borts was illegal, then Steckel should be locked up for life, throw away the key.
But the NHL being the garage league it is, will hand down a suspension, to appease the Jagr fans.
I didn't like the Bortuzzo's cross-check to Jagr's back in the 1st period, and I thought his hit on Jagr in the 2nd was late and high on first viewing. I still feel that way after seeing it slowed down. I think Bortuzzo will get a 2 game suspension from the NHL, but it's the 'Code' justice that the Devils will mete out to Malkin and/or Crosby at Prudential Center on December 29th that worries me more.
As for the Penguins "fans" who cheered Jagr's injury, do us all a favor during future games by embarrassing yourself in the comfort of your own (wo)man cave. Your Neanderthal antics will be more appreciated there.
If the issue in this instance is that it was late, how did the NHL not review the Dustin Byfuglien hit on Steve Downie? Much later? Yes. Player not expecting to be hit? Yes. Puck off screen? Yes.
If they are reviewing this as a head shot, I think that it will be tough to show the head as the primary point of contact.
If they think the hit was unnecessary, see the Byfuglien/Downie example.
I thought the first hit on Jagr earlier in the game was much worse if we are comparing the two.
His prior history doesn't factor into whether he gets suspended. It does factor into the length of the suspension, however. Last year, 42 of 44 hearings resulted in suspensions.
Totally appreciate the disclosure at the very end about the idiotic fans that felt it was necessary to cheer an injured player. I don't care if it was a player that never played here and is a total jerk. Cheering for an injury is completely classless. Leave that for the classless fans in Philly. We are better than that! Unfortunately, the fans who were cheering probably won't ever hear this.
Sorry, but the "better than that" thinking is BS. Most hockey fans are generally the same everywhere, regardless of how we want to think our geography or provincialism builds in a certain proclivity from that. I'm sure there are fans in Philly who have the same disposition to perceived rude/classless behavior, even though we paint them all with the same broad brush. We're better than that? Based on what I ask? If I hear blue collar, or hard working, I'll puke.
Perhaps I should have said, BE better than that. And yes, I was painting Philly with a broad brush. There are definitely good people in Philly. I actually have a ton of friends there. I still hate Philly and as a group in my humble non-fact based opinion the percentage of classless people is higher there than anywhere else. And no, it has nothing to do with blue collar here. Any chance I get to jump on Philly fans I certainly will. Deserved or not. Trust me I'm not one who claims to be perfect and thinks my city is either. I enjoyed your retort.
Great piece, enjoyed it. Also strongly condemn the fans reaction to Jagr being woozy on the ice. In regards to your question about us being so far removed from 1999, the answer is yes. I think the fans reaction is more a product of what he did two years ago with his public comments about owing Mario so much and wanting to play with him, then choosing to sign with our hated rival. Don't get me he wrong, I don't blame him, he got more money and a chance to play on the top two lines in Philly. Although disappointed I realize he did what was best for him and that doesn't warrant cheering when he is obviously not right after a big hit.
Thanks for pointing out the knuckleheads cheering while Jagr was down, I didn't catch that on TV. I did, however, notice that a fairly loud ovation occurred when he got up and made his way off the ice, which is one of my favorite gestures of respect, especially as it relates to a rival. Cheering for anybody's injury (even Lindros'--though I was guilty of that as a boneheaded teen) is a clear sign that one doesn't understand sports and his or her time would be better spent watching professional wrestling.
Also, people who boo Jagr relentlessly should think about how that relates to the way they cheer Evgeni Malkin today, because he's gonna be in the exact same position someday.
I've made this point for years. Time to repeat. Bortuzzo hit Jagr's head with his shoulder. Hard. He deserves a suspension.
But these elbows and shoulders to the head will continue to be a problem because of the quality of the armor these guys wear. I guarantee Bortuzzo didn't feel one bit of pain from his hit. I truly believe you'd reduce a lot of the worst impact injuries by forcing these guys to wear equipment that is much "less" protective, which paradoxically would make players safer by reducing the aggressiveness and recklessness that the superior equipment allows.
You're not going to be as willing to blast guys with elbows and shoulders and upper arms if you know you're going to pay a hard price yourself. The pads are the problem.
Of course, this does apply to today's skates, but make these guys go back to wearing less padding. Problem...well, not solved, but greatly reduced.
The problem with your argument about the suspension is that Bortuzzo wasn't suspended for a head shot. He was suspended for interference. In the video they explain that the hit was delivered to Jagr's chest and followed through his chin. They did mention that there was "significant head contact," but that wasn't the reason he was suspended. It was because, as they claim, the hit was made too late.
Now that I've watched more video, the really cheap-azz hook/slew Jagr pulled on Bortz before the big hit was equally predatory and dangerous. Bort was lucky not to be flipped and hit his head on the ice.
So he comes back and tags Jagr, cleanly IMO. And that gets called.
Garage. League.
I do not feel that Bortuzzo's hit was dirty or late. I agree with everything that Dejan and Sarah had to say. I don't think that Bortuzzo could have stopped in the time that he had. His elbow does not come up until after he hits Jagr. Jagr should have had his head up, which I think is the only reason why Bortuzzo might have gotten a part of his chin. However, I think he mainly hit his chest.
Also, I think it's ridiculous that the league isn't calling or suspending for all hits. How do they expect hits to stop if they let half of the players get away with it? Boychuk should have been suspended. I'm not going to get into it because others already have.
The cheering when a player is hurt disgusts me. I don't care who that player is or what they've done. I wouldn't even cheer if Boychuk or Marchand got hurt and they are my least favorite players. Add Lucic and Thornton in there too. It's just not right. You can cheer the hit but that's as far as it should go.
And don't get me started on the league's disciplinary committee. It's ridiculous. They had obviously already decided Bortuzzo was going to be suspended before the call. But this is too long already, so I won't add any more!
Excellent commentary DK! Your comments in regards to cheering when Jagr was injured resonated with me. I believe it makes Pittsburghers look like they have no integrity which is unrepresentative of the majority.
I watched 2 previous NHL Dept of Player Safety suspension videos for interference infractions. One of the suspended players was Brandon Prust (2 game suspension) and the other was Corey Perry (4 game suspension). In both of those videos, they used a lot of the same phrases that they use in Bortuzzo's suspension video; namely, "extreme lateness." However, in both of those videos, they clearly state that the hit occurred "nearly a full second" after the puck had left the player in possession of it. In Bortuzzo's suspension video, they do not mention the amount of time between Jagr's pass and Bortuzzo's hit. I haven't measured this time for myself, but I know others have tweeted that it was 0.39 seconds and I trust that they aren't making it up. This leads me to believe the NHL isn't staying consistent as DK is pointing out.
December 3, 2014
Morning Java: Slow-motion vs. NHL justice
by Dejan Kovacevic • Videos • Morning Java, Penguins
DEJAN KOVACEVIC, DK ON PITTSBURGH SPORTS
This week’s Morning Java video commentary — the first, really, since some upgrades — revisits Robert Bortuzzo’s hit on Jaromir Jagr Tuesday night at Consol. And as you’ll see here, live rather than in slow-motion.
For more on the Penguins’ shutout of the Devils, check today’s column.